Centralized discussion for bugs in the autotransliteration system

The java script for this system can be found at Mediawiki:KnTranslit.js
I'll start by answering some questions that have been asked of me by more than one editor:

Pressing Esc key to switch to English removes all the previously written words in Explorer.

Ans: Please press Ctrl+z after Esc and it will reappear.

How to use half letters in the middle of a word? Eg. ರಾಜ್‍ಕುಮಾರ್

Ans: ಅರ್ಧಾಕ್ಷರ ಬರೆದ ನಂತರ zero width joiner(the ^ symbol in key board) ಉಪಯೋಗಿಸಬೇಕು (with the help of shift key).ಉದಾ:-ರಾಜ್‌^ಕುಮಾರ್ ಎಂದು ಬರೆದರೆ ಅದು ರಾಜ್‍ಕುಮಾರ್ ಆಗುತ್ತದೆ. --Rajalakshmi ೧೪:೦೧, ೩೦ ನವೆಂಬರ್ ೨೦೦೭ (UTC). This works in IE but not in Firefox. Suggestions from technically knowledgeable individuals welcome!

Suggestions regarding making this system easier to use are very welcome - Including help files, useful tools on the editing pages, or anything that you can think of, please suggest them. Thanks. ಶುಶ್ರುತ ^{\ಮಾತು \ಕತೆ} ೦೩:೨೭, ೧೮ ನವೆಂಬರ್ ೨೦೦೭ (UTC)

ಪದದ ಮಧ್ಯದಲ್ಲಿ ಅರ್ಧಾಕ್ಷರಗಳನ್ನು ಬರೆಯುವ ವಿಧಾನ:-

Some observations on formation of Kannada letters

a) mU is shown as ಮೂ which is similar to mA ಮಾ

b) yU is shown as ಯೂ which is similar to yA ಯಾ

c) ಮೋ , ಯೋ ( mO and yO ) are improperly formed.

d) ಋ ಸ್ವರದ ದೀರ್ಘರೂಪ ಎಂತು? ( ಇದು ಬಲು ಅಪರೂಪವಾಗಿ ಬಳಸಲ್ಪಡುವ ಅಕ್ಷರ )

Pl. see if they can be corrected. Regards ಶೇಷಾದ್ರಿ ೦೯:೫೪, ೧೮ ನವೆಂಬರ್ ೨೦೦೭ (UTC)

I am not seeing the improper formations in my browser nor can I figure out why it might be happening. Does anyone else see it or know why it might happen?

As regards ಋ ಧೀರ್ಘರೂಪ, I thought it was not used in any word and hence left it out. I'll try to include it soon. ಶುಶ್ರುತ ^{\ಮಾತು \ಕತೆ} ೧೭:೧೮, ೧೮ ನವೆಂಬರ್ ೨೦೦೭ (UTC)

I too do not see any issues regarding concerns a, b and c. They are displaying fine in my browsers (both IE and Firefox). I believe it is a matter of Operating System. I am having Windows XP.

Regarding the concern d, it is valid to not include RU, as it is not part of Kannada alphabet. It was removed officially, around 12 years ago. Since then, that letter is not appearing in textbooks also. The reason, as Sushruta has already written above, there is no Kannada word that uses that letter. Thanks - ಮನ|Mana ^{Talk - Contribs} ೧೮:೧೨, ೧೮ ನವೆಂಬರ್ ೨೦೦೭ (UTC)

<br\><br\> Dear sirs,

I think, when I raised the points mentioned in a) to c) above, I was not clearly putting across my views. In order to clearly present my thinking, I am showing below a screenshot from baraha 7.0. This shot covers all the three issues mentioned above. The transliterated Kannada letters as seen in the topmost window are perfectly formed. The corresponding English keys are to be seen in the bottom window. However, it is to be noted that even though the top window contents are perfect, the same when copied and pasted onto a kn-wiki edit page, the formation of these particular letters change and come to the present form as seen in any kn-wiki page. Secondly, the formation seems perfect only on a page created under baraha 7.0 (.brh files). If we use the Baraha Direct utility under any word processor / spreadsheets ( such as MS-Word and Excel ) then again these letters change appearence and would become similar to what is ssen now on kn-wiki. This is the point I was trying to mention. <br\> With regards ಶೇಷಾದ್ರಿ ೧೩:೦೭, ೨೦ ನವೆಂಬರ್ ೨೦೦೭ (UTC) <br\>

Actually, the formation of letters on the kannada wiki page in my computer looks exactly like the one in the Baraha window. The ಮೂ and ಮಾ are very clearly distinguishable. I use Windows XP and I've checked the same on Mac OS X too. So Mana might be right in that you are having a problem because of the operating system. Which operating system are you using? ಶುಶ್ರುತ ^{\ಮಾತು \ಕತೆ} ೦೦:೩೬, ೨೧ ನವೆಂಬರ್ ೨೦೦೭ (UTC)

Did anybody find the reason for the issue mentioned above? I am also facing similar issues and there are some more with yI (ಯೀ), mI (ಮೀ), JI (ಝೀ), JU (ಝೂ), Jo (ಝೊ) and JO (ಝೋ). The problem is with ಯ, ಮ and ಝ, which are similar in writing. I can see a ಧೀರ್ಘ in the end. Even the ಕನ್ನಡ ಕಾಗುಣಿತ page is also reflecting the same. I am using Windows XP with IE6. --Augustine ೨೧:೦೪, ೨೬ ನವೆಂಬರ್ ೨೦೦೭ (UTC)

So obviously, it is not just an OS problem. I don't have IE 6 but on IE 7 everything looks right. I've attached my screenshot showing both the editing window and the corresponding display in wikipedia in firefox (looks very similar in IE7 too) and the various letters are clearly discernible. However, try this one thing and see if it helps. In IE, under Tools -> Internet Options, General tab, click on the Fonts button at the bottom. In the pull-down menu saying 'Language script', choose Kannada. You may get two options -> Tunga and Arial Unicode MS. If the font is set to Tunga, try changing it to Arial Unicode MS. Then the letters might become better discernible. Try it and tell me if it is any better. If not, then we'll have to start looking at other possibilities... ಶುಶ್ರುತ ^{\ಮಾತು \ಕತೆ} ೦೧:೪೧, ೨೭ ನವೆಂಬರ್ ೨೦೦೭ (UTC)

I tried many options including installation of Firefox. But it didn't help. It might be because I am unable to find Arial Unicode MS under the fonts. I am currently not authorized to install the same in my system. Can anyone, who is facing this issue, try the proposed solution and let us know if it works please? --Augustine ೨೦:೫೦, ೨೮ ನವೆಂಬರ್ ೨೦೦೭ (UTC)

I was able to find a partial solution by installing the patch from :
http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/details.aspx?familyid=3fa7cdd1-506b-4ca0-bd47-b338e337a527&displaylang=en&displaylang=en
The characters mU, mO, yU, yO, Jo and JO are appearing properly. However, mI, yI and JI still has a ಧೀರ್ಘ. --Augustine ೨೨:೪೬, ೨೯ ನವೆಂಬರ್ ೨೦೦೭ (UTC)

That's good news. Are you still on Tunga font or on Arial? Also mI (ಮೀ), yI (ಯೀ) and JI (ಝೀ) should have ಧೀರ್ಘ! Do you mean to say they are still difficult to distinguish? ಶುಶ್ರುತ ^{\ಮಾತು \ಕತೆ} ೦೩:೦೫, ೩೦ ನವೆಂಬರ್ ೨೦೦೭ (UTC)

With the above mentioned patch on Windows, the issues raised by me are resolved. Thanks. ಶೇಷಾದ್ರಿ ೧೩:೩೯, ೩೦ ನವೆಂಬರ್ ೨೦೦೭ (UTC)

My settings are 'Language script' -> 'Latin based' and 'Web page font' -> 'Verdana'. But that doesn't matter now. The characters are not affected even if I choose other fonts. Thanks for clarifying that mI, yI and JI should have a ಧೀರ್ಘ! and it is acceptable. I was not taught to write that way. --Augustine ೨೦:೩೨, ೩೦ ನವೆಂಬರ್ ೨೦೦೭ (UTC)

Additions

Can you please add these two rules into the translit javascript page? It is protected, and hence I cannot edit.

"R":"ರ್‍‍", "ರ್‍u":"ಋ"
"R":"ಋ" -> This needs to be removed

Also these new additions, in consistent with baraha transliteration rules.

kee -> ಕೀ . So, "ಕೆe":"ಕೀ" (ಹಾಗೆಯೇ, ee -> ಈ => "ಎe":"ಈ"; "ಖೆe":"ಖೀ", "ಗೆe":"ಗೀ", "ಚೆe":"ಚೀ", ಇತ್ಯಾದಿ)
koo -> ಕೂ . So, "ಕೊo":"ಕೂ" (ಹಾಗೆಯೇ, oo -> ಊ => "ಒo":"ಊ"; "ಖೊo":"ಖೂ", "ಗೊo":"ಗೂ", "ಚೊo":"ಚೂ", ಇತ್ಯಾದಿ)

Let me know if you have any questions. - ಮನ|Mana ^{Talk - Contribs} ೨೦:೫೩, ೧೮ ನವೆಂಬರ್ ೨೦೦೭ (UTC)

I agree completely with your reasoning regarding Ru needing to be mapped to ಋ (the eg. with kRuti). But I don't see the reasons for mapping R to ರ, and the ee and oo mappings. Consistency with Baraha might not be a strong argument because the main target audience for this system will be those not using baraha. Such additional mappings will just add to code clutter in my opinion. Are there phonetic reasons for the need of such mappings? ಶುಶ್ರುತ ^{\ಮಾತು \ಕತೆ} ೦೫:೪೩, ೧೯ ನವೆಂಬರ್ ೨೦೦೭ (UTC)

R has to be mapped to ರ್‍‍ so that when user types u after that, it recognises it as ಋ and not ರು. Right? Please note, those rendering of r results in different set of unicode characters than rendering of R. You can see the difference in this diff.

Regarding, oo and ee mappings, the reasoning is they are more readable than the U and I, and people can easily remember the transliteration rules.

For example, when you want to type a word meeting in Kannada, it is more sensible to assume people use meeTiMg than mITiMg. Similarly, kool, neeli, moolaka, boodi, reeti, neeti etc. Also, exactly the same logic why we have aa mapping,along with A, for ಆ. There may be people who are comfortable writing uppercase letters in between, but not all people. I am more comfortable writing in lowercase as much as possible, we are forced to use uppercases in somecases anyway, like O (for ಓ).

I would also like to know what are the opinions of other regular editors here. - ಮನ|Mana ^{Talk - Contribs} ೧೫:೪೬, ೧೯ ನವೆಂಬರ್ ೨೦೦೭ (UTC)

PS: Unfortunately, I cannot unprotect the transliteration page as it is in mediawiki space. Should we transfer the hash to some other place so that others can work on it too and it'll be easier for me to paste it back once we all settle on changes to the mapping rules? ಶುಶ್ರುತ ^{\ಮಾತು \ಕತೆ} ೦೫:೪೩, ೧೯ ನವೆಂಬರ್ ೨೦೦೭ (UTC)

It should not matter much. We can discuss first, like how we are doing now, and once we have a consensus you can have it updated. Only disadvantage being, we are not able to experiment with it, before proposing any change. If possible, that .js file should be usable under user namespace, like how we are able to use POPUPS, Twinkle etc. Will need to try that out. - ಮನ|Mana ^{Talk - Contribs} ೧೫:೪೬, ೧೯ ನವೆಂಬರ್ ೨೦೦೭ (UTC)

Those are good reasons. I'll start ringing in the changes. Regarding using the javascript in the personal monobook.js page, will there not be a conflict between the two? Do you want me to disable the sitewide transliteration for some hours whereby you can carry out experiments? ಶುಶ್ರುತ ^{\ಮಾತು \ಕತೆ} ೦೨:೨೯, ೨೦ ನವೆಂಬರ್ ೨೦೦೭ (UTC)

Thanks for the kind gesture, Shushruta, of disabling sitewide transliteration, for time being. However, I will be away from internet for next 1 week, starting from tomorrow. I will certainly look into this once I am back. Probably there is a way to experiment it out, without having to disable the transliteration sitewide. Let us see. Meanwhile, if any other editors come up with some suggestions/ideas we can try incorporating them. Thanks - ಮನ|Mana ^{Talk - Contribs} ೦೪:೧೭, ೨೦ ನವೆಂಬರ್ ೨೦೦೭ (UTC)

ಹಳಗನ್ನಡದ ರ ಹಾಗೂ ಳ ವನ್ನು ಟೈಪ್‌ಮಾಡುವುದು ಹೇಗೆ?

ಇದಕ್ಕೆ ಬರಹ ತಂತ್ರಾಂಶವನ್ನು ಉಪಯೋಗಿಸಬೇಕಾಗುತ್ತದೆ. ಶುಶ್ರುತ ^{\ಮಾತು \ಕತೆ} ೦೨:೩೬, ೨೨ ಏಪ್ರಿಲ್ ೨೦೦೮ (UTC)

q (ಱ್) Q(ೞ್) ~ ತೇಜಸ್ ೦೯:೩೮, ೭ ಜೂನ್ ೨೦೧೧ (UTC)

Key mappings for ಙ್ and ಞ್

Few suggesions regarding key mappings by an anon user on my user talk page.

“

A few suggestions regarding key mappings. The key mapping for ZWNJ (Zero width non joiner character) can be shown. I think this is "^^". This may be a very useful addition, since I have seen many articles where users have left two words unjoined because joining without a ZWNJ creates unwanted vattus. Examples ಸಾಫ್ಟ್ವೇರ್, ಚಾಮ್ಸ್ಕಿ etc. The key mapping for ಙ್ is z and that for ಞ್ is zx. Can this be changed to something which is nearer to the way those characters sound? For example, itrans uses ~N for ಙ್ and ~n for ಞ್. These may be easier to remember. Anyway these are just suggestions. Thanks. 59.92.190.79 ೦೯:೨೧, ೨೫ ಜುಲೈ ೨೦೦೯ (UTC)

”

--ವಿನಯ್^{\ಚರ್ಚೆ} ೧೮:೦೮, ೨೫ ಜುಲೈ ೨೦೦೯ (UTC)

When I initially made the auto transliteration key mappings way back when, I tried to copy what was in Baraha. Unfortunately ~N and ~n did not work with the java script for reasons I couldn't figure out. That is why I mapped ಙ್ and ಞ್ to unmapped keys z and zx because I thought they did sound a little like 'zz' sound. The ZWNJ also didn't work the first time around. I only got around to fixing it a lot later - and forgot to add it to the key maps. What should we add it as so that it make sense to the casual user? ಶುಶ್ರುತ / Shushruth (ಮಾತು\ಕತೆ) ೦೨:೩೨, ೨೯ ಜುಲೈ ೨೦೦೯ (UTC)

Since ಞ್ is pronounced as nya i would suggest we add it as ~ny or ~n as in baraha. I dont know any words where ಙ್ can be used. Since it looks like ಙ್ is used very rarely, we can leave it with present key mapping. --ವಿನಯ್^{\ಚರ್ಚೆ} ೧೧:೩೭, ೨೯ ಜುಲೈ ೨೦೦೯ (UTC)

No, the problem is that the system is not recognizing the modifier tilde (~). I suspect this could be because the mediawiki software uses tildes for signature. x and z are the only unmapped keys. One way to simplify would be to use z for ಙ್ as is and to use x for ಞ್. ಶುಶ್ರುತ / Shushruth (ಮಾತು\ಕತೆ) ೧೩:೩೮, ೧ ಆಗಸ್ಟ್ ೨೦೦೯ (UTC)

Just checked the te wiki translit script. They use @ in certain key mappings. So that's an option inplace of ~, although i personally wont prefer it. Any thoughts ?--ವಿನಯ್^{\ಚರ್ಚೆ} ೧೭:೦೯, ೨ ಆಗಸ್ಟ್ ೨೦೦೯ (UTC)

I don't think that would be in any way intuitive. Also, we'll have to use the shift key to generate the characters whereas now it is not required. By the way, q is another unmapped key. I don't know. I feel the best way to simplify would be to put x for ಞ್ - thus saving one key stroke for it.ಶುಶ್ರುತ / Shushruth (ಮಾತು\ಕತೆ) ೦೩:೨೪, ೩ ಆಗಸ್ಟ್ ೨೦೦೯ (UTC)

I agree. Then lets change the key mapping for ಞ್ as x.--ವಿನಯ್^{\ಚರ್ಚೆ} ೦೬:೨೮, ೩ ಆಗಸ್ಟ್ ೨೦೦೯ (UTC)

It Is good to see that a new section has been added to the transliteration help page regarding the use of ZWNJ. I would suggest this section be renamed to something less technical. For ex, there is a question called ಅರ್ಧಾಕ್ಷರಗಳನ್ನು ಬರೆಯುವುದು ಹೇಗೆ? in this page. May be that itself is a good name for the section and easily understandable by casual users. Also if a small note can be added under the key mappings or atleast a link to the ZWNJ section it would be excellent. Some more examples can be added, ರಾಜ್‌ಕುಮಾರ್, ಫಿಲ್ಮ್‌ಸಿಟಿ, ಗೆಸ್ಟ್‌ಹೌಸ್, ಐನ್‌ಸ್ಟೀನ್, ಪೋರ್ಟ್‌ಫೋಲಿಯೋ etc. Interestingly, the telugu translit script uses ~ as a key mapping character. - 59.92.168.195 ೦೮:೨೯, ೩ ಸೆಪ್ಟೆಂಬರ್ ೨೦೦೯ (UTC)

Pavithra H.D SEZ is bad girl

ornamental plants

·

ornamental plants

ಗ್ರಾಂಡಿಯೋಸ ಸೂಪರ್ಬ -ಇದು ಒಂದು ಙ್ ಶದೀಯ ಗಿಡ ಜುಲೆಯ್ ಎರಡನೆ ವಾರದಲ್ಲಿ ಮೊಗ್ಗು ಶುರುವಾಗಿ ಆಗಸ್ಟ್ ಸೆಪ್ಟೆಂಬರ್ ತಿಂಗಳುಗಳಲ್ಲಿ ತುಂಬಾ ಹೂವುಗಳನ್ನು ಬಿಡುತ್ತದೆ. ಇದು ಬಳ್ಳಿಯಾಗಿದ್ದು ಮಲೆನಾಡು ಸಹಜ ಕಾಡುಗಳಲ್ಲಿ ಕಂಡು ಬರುತ್ತವೆ. ಕಾಡುಗಳನ್ನು ಕಡಿದು ಹೊಲಗಳನ್ನಾಗಿಸಿಕೊಂಡಿರುವುದರಿಂದ ಈಗ ಬೇಲಿಗಳಲ್ಲಿ ಬೇಲಿ ಗಿಡಗಳ ಮೇಲೆ ಆಸರೆ ಪಡೆದು ಹಬ್ಬಿ ಬೆಳೆಯುತ್ತದೆ. ಹೂವುಗಳು ಗೊಂಚಲಿನಲ್ಲಿ ಕಂಡು ಬರುತ್ತವೆ. ಗಣೇಶ ಹಬ್ಬದ ಸಮಯದಲ್ಲಿ ಹೂವುಗಳು ಕಾಣುವುದರಿಂದ ಇದನ್ನು ಗಣೇಶ ಹೂ ಎಂದೂ ಕರೆಯುತ್ತಾರೆ.

I am using IE 8 and tried the above mentioned letters. As said by sheshadri, letter combinations are perfect in Baraha but the same letter combinations output in Barahapad seems to be again incorrect.

English letters - mA mo mO mu mU baraha pad - ಮಾ ಮೊ ಮೋ ಮು ಮೂ

್ಿಚೇ್ಿಚತ

mangala pandey attacking date

Mangal pandey attacked britisha's military in 1857, but in this information by mistake mentioned as 1957, so please change it

ಸಂಗೊಳ್ಳಿ ರಾಯಣ್ಣ

ಪ್ರೀಯ ಗುರುಗಳೇ,

ಸಂಗೊಳ್ಳಿ ರಾಯಣ್ಣ ಸ್ವಾತಂತ್ರ್ಯ ಹೋರಾಟಗಾರನೋ ಅಥವಾ ಕೇವಲ ಕ್ರಾಂತಿಕಾರಿಯೋ? ರಾಯಣ್ಣ , ಸ್ವಾತಂತ್ರ್ಯ ಹೋರಾಟಗಾರನಾಗಿದ್ದರೆ, ನಮ್ಮ ದೇಶದ ಮೊದಲ ಸ್ವಾತಂತ್ರ್ಯ ಹೋರಾಟ ನಡೆದದ್ದು ಯಾವಾಗ? ದಯವಿಟ್ಟು ನನ್ನ ಈ ಪ್ರಶ್ನೆಗೆ ಉತ್ತರ ಕೊಡಿ.

ಇಂತಿ ನಿಮ್ಮ

-ಜಿತೇಂದ್ರ

ವಚನ ಗಳ ಬಗೆ ಎನೂ ಇರುವುದಿಲ್ಲ

ಸ್ವರಕ್ಕೆ ಒತ್ತು ಕೊಡುವುದು ಮತ್ತು ರ ಅಕ್ಷರಕ್ಕೆ ಒತ್ತು ಕೊಡುವುದು

ಸದ್ಯಕ್ಕೆ ಲಿಪ್ಯಂತರ ಬಳಸಿ ಆ್ಯಸಿಡ್, ಆ್ಯಕ್ಷನ್ ನಂತಹ ಶಬ್ದಗಳನ್ನು ಬೆರಳಚ್ಚು ಮಾಡಲು ಸಾಧ್ಯವಾಗುತ್ತಿಲ್ಲ, ಏಕೆಂದರೆ ಆ್ಯ ಅಕ್ಷರ ಬರೆಯಲು ಆಗುತ್ತಿಲ್ಲ. ಇದಕ್ಕೆ ಒಂದು ಸಲಹೆ. ಆ್ಯ ಅಕ್ಷರ ಆ + viraama + ಯ ಗಳ ಸಂಯೋಜನೆಯಾಗಿದೆ. ಅಂದರೆ

ಆ್ಯ = ಆ + viraama ( ್) + ಯ

ಈಗ ತೊಡಕಾಗಿರುವುದು viraama ಕ್ಕೆ ಯಾವುದೇ key combination ಇಲ್ಲ. ಹಾಗಾಗಿ, viraama ಅಕ್ಷರ ಬರೆಯಲು ಸಾಧ್ಯವಾದರೆ ಸ್ವರಕ್ಕೆ ಒತ್ತು ಕೊಡಬಹುದು ಮತ್ತು ಮೇಲೆ ಹೇಳಿದ ಶಬ್ದಗಳನ್ನು ಬೆರಳಚ್ಚು ಮಾಡಬಹುದು.

ಜೊತೆಗೆ ರ‍್ಯಾಲಿ, ರ‍್ಯಾಂಕ್ ನಂತಹ ಶಬ್ದಗಳನ್ನೂ ಬೆರಳಚ್ಚು ಮಾಡಲಾಗುತ್ತಿಲ್ಲ. ಇದಕ್ಕೆ ಕಾರಣ ಸದ್ಯಕ್ಕೆ ಬಳಸಲಾಗುತ್ತಿರುವ ರ‍್ಯಾ ಅಕ್ಷರದ ಸಂಯೋಜನೆ ತಪ್ಪಾಗಿದೆ. ಇದರ ಸರಿಯಾದ ಸಂಯೋಜನೆ

ರ‍್ಯಾ = ರ + ZWJ + viraama ( ್) + ಯಾ

ಇದಕ್ಕೂ ತೊಡಕು viraama ದ key combination ಇಲ್ಲದಿರುವುದು.

ಹಾಗಾಗಿ, viraama ಕ್ಕೆ ಒಂದು key combination ಸೇರಿಸಿದರೆ ಅನುಕೂಲವಾಗುತ್ತದೆ. ದಯವಿಟ್ಟು ಸೇರಿಸಿ. ಸದ್ಯಕ್ಕೆ ಬಳಸುತ್ತಿರುವ keymap ನೋಡಿದರೆ V ಯನ್ನು ಬಳಸಬಹುದು. ಧನ್ಯವಾದಗಳು.

117.221.26.163 ೧೭:೦೧, ೭ ಏಪ್ರಿಲ್ ೨೦೧೭ (UTC)

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